Income from a Canadian R.R.I.F - 8621 - 8891 - TDF 90-22.1 -
Hello. I am a Canadian citizen, and I have been a resident of the
U.S. for the last 20 years. I had an R.R.S.P. (personal IRA), at the
time I moved to the U.S., which has since tripled in value. The
problem is that I will soon have to convert the R.R.S.P. to a R.R.I.F.
(Registered Retirement Income Fund) and start receiving payments from
it, as prescribed by the Canadian Government. I expect that these
distributions will be subject to Canadian withholding tax, as I am a
U.S. resident, but that U.S. income tax will only apply to a percentage
of the amount distributed from the R.R.I.F. So, here's my
question: How do I determine what percentage of the annual payment
will be subject to U.S. income tax? Thanks for your help. / xxxxxx
--------------------------------------------------------------david ingram replies:
Since 1989 it has been your responsibility to report the internal earnings of the RRSP to the IRS on an annual basis.
(The US penalty for not doing so can be 35% of the amount in the RRSP plus 5% for every year not reported) See questions 7 and 8 on the bottom of US schedule B of your 1040. You should have answered yes to both of them,.
If you have / had done so, you would know how much of the RRIF payment is return of your original input and earnings up to the date you moved to the US and how much is new earnings earned in the US since you immigrated.
You, of course, are filling in form 8891 now to deal with the situation.
If you have not, you will have to ask (and likely pay for) the RRIF company to determine what part of your RRIF payment represents original principal and what part of the blended payment represents new earnings.
You will then put the gross payment on line 16a of your 1040 and the earnings portion (per form 8891) on line 16b when you start receiving distributions.
see below
---------------------
QUESTION:
Canadian resident US citizen owns many Canadian mutual funds, what are the filing requirements? I heard some people have recorded on their 1040 returns the same allocation as per T3; others have put the total distribution as income on Schedule B so have reported the capital gain distribution as straight income along with the return of capital. Some have suggested that Form 3520 needs to be prepared. Others have said no instead prepare Form 8621 and a QEF election should be considered. So what are you thoughts and how have you been handling this mutual fund issue???
------------------------------david ingram replies:
Treat a T3 or a T5 as a 1099-Div or 1099. convert the figures to US dollars if in Canadian and put in the proper place on Schedules B and D.
Calculate the tax you paid to Canada and claim it as a foreign tax credit on form 1116
There is no reason to fill out a form 8621 or QEF (Qualified Electing Fund) because the Canadian taxes will just about always wipe out any US tax by filing form 1116.
You can see Form 8621 here - http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8621.pdf
Assuming all of your accounts total more than $10,000 US, you will then fill out forms TDF 90-22.1 for every financial account including RRSP, RRIF and RESP accounts, AND any mother or father or sister or brother's or company accounts yo may have signing authority over. See Question 7 at bottom of Schedule B.
Form TDF 90-22.1 - http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f90221.pdf-
For your RRSP, RRIF and RESP accounts you should file form 3520. The good news is that for the RRIF and RRSP accounts you can substitute the much easier form 8891.
Form 8891 - http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8891.pdf
The penalties for failure to file these forms are immense.
--
This older question explains penalties:
QUESTION: I would like to put some money away for retirement. I'm a U.S. citizen living in Canada for the near future, but I know I'll be living in the U.S. again before I retire. Should I put my money in an RRSP or an IRA?-----------------------------------------
david ingram replies;
This would be a great question for the Sunday morning radio program on CKBD 600AM from 9:00 AM to 10:30 AM.
The answer,though, is that you would likely be better putting after tax dollars down on your mortgage if you have one. Other than that, you can only buy an RRSP for a tax deduction. Of course, you then have to make sure that you fill in forms TDF 90-22.1 and 8891 as follows:
The following question deals with a US resident but you have to fill in the same forms living in Canada - failure to file them can mean big big big penalties.
TDF 90 rules here
I am a Canadian citizen and legal US resident. I've lived in
Florida for 25 years and now, at 65, I'm considering taking
distributions from a spousal RRSP with Royal Bank.
Unfortunately, income tax information I've received from
different sources is terribly conflicting and, at worst, indicates that
my nest egg will be gobbled up by governments. Is this something you
can steer me straight on?
----------------------------------------------------------
david ingram replies:
If you roll the RRSP into an RRIF (Registered retirement investment Fund), The payer will have to deduct 15% non resident withholding tax under the terms of Article XVIII of the US . Canada Income Tax Convention (Treaty).
You will then report it again on form 8891 of your 1040 and there may or may not be US tax to pay. If your income is high enough that you are in a federal 28% tax rate, there 'will' be tax to pay on the RRIF.
You will claim the 15% tax paid to Canada on US form 1116.
---------------------------------------
Now, you have been supposed to report the existence of that account to the Department of the Treasury in Detroit on form TDF 90-22.1 since 1989 when that law was passed and shown in bulletin 89-45. Failure to report can be a penalty of a minimum of $10,000 to a maximum of $500,000 PLUS up to 5 years in jail for each year you did not report it. See the bottom question on schedule B of your 1040 where your foreign trust requires the preparing and filing of a 3520.
Thankfully, you do NOT have to do a 3520. the 8891 takes it place and is much easier.
The penalty for not also reporting the RRSP and its internal earnings to the IRS (it was the Dept of Treasury above) is 35% of the principal plus 5% for each year it was not reported since 1989 when the reporting rules started. The form 8891 is an exemption for paying the tax on those internal earnings.
See form 8891 at: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8891.pdf
RELIEF
Although I know of over 1,000 people who have paid $10,000 fines for not filing form TDF 90-22.1, I (at this time) do not know personally of a single individual who has been fined under the 8891 / 3520 rules. I also have NEVER seen a person fined for filing the TDF 90-22.1 forms late and voluntarily.
In my opinion, you should file the TDF 90-22.1 forms retroactively for six years.to the Department of the Treasury.
See Form TDF 90-22.1 at http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f90221.pdf Note the penalty of up to $500,000 plus five years in jail for failure to file. The minimum fine is now $10,000.
You should file retroactive 8891 forms with a 1040X to the IRS for the same years. Note that you are the BENEFICIARY so follow the Beneficiary rules. The 8891 form is actually only 3 years old. Before that, you just wrote out the information on a free form page but it is a convenient form to use retroactively.
Hope this helps and we would be glad to assist if needed.
If you are in the lower mainland, this will be of interest
Every Thursday at 12 noon and 7 PM, Fred Snyder of Dundeee Wealth Management
presents free Financial Seminars for his clients, potential clients and anyone who phones and asks to attend.
THERE is NO CHARGE! (I used to charge up to $999.00 for essentially the same thing)
AND - NO ONE'S ARM IS TWISTED TO BUY SOMETHING.
They are presented at the Dundee Boardroom (holds about 30 people max)
1764 West 7th
Vancouver, BC
phone (604) 731-8900 - ask for Freda to register for free.
These are genuine educational seminars dealing with everything from how to buy a house to making your mortgage tax deductible to buying an RRSP to alternatives to RRSP accounts to estate planning. What started as 13 separate seminars has now evolved into 23 separate topics.
IT IS NOT UNUSUAL FOR PEOPLE TO COME TO ALL OF THEM.
ONE LADY CAME TO 53 separate seminars and her husband came to about 20 with her.
If you have a financial consultant, bring them. People have brought their bankers and life insurance agents with them.
Take your spouse, your best friend, your son, your daughter, your mother or your worst enemy But do phone 604-731-8900
Fred Snyder also is the host of ITS YOUR MONEY every Sunday morning on CKBD 600AM (600 on AM dial) from 9:00 to 10:30. This is a phone in financial show which I appear as a guest on most Sundays (when I get up). (Originally I was the co-host but the program is really devoted to BC finances because of BC Securities Legislation and my practice is world wide.) You can listen to 4 weeks back at www.600am.com and listen to the program live around the world every Sunday morning at the same spot. We have taken calls from around the world. In one case, a lady phoned from Florida, got her answer and then asked if I was the David ingram she knew in Regina back in 1959. Small world as they say.
Call (604) 280-0600 with your question on Sunday Morning.
On February 11, 2008, David
Ingram wrote:
It is very unlikely that blind or unexpected email to me will be answered. I receive anywhere from 100 to 700 unsolicited emails a day and usually answer anywhere from 2 to 20 if they are not from existing clients. Existing clients are advised to put their 'name and PAYING CUSTOMER' in the subject line and get answered first. I also refuse to be a slave to email and do not look at it every day and have never ever looked at it when I am out of town. e bankruptcy expert US Canada Canadian American Mexican Income Tax service and help
However, I regularly search for the words"PAYING
CUSTOMER" and always answer them first if they did not get spammed out.
For the last two weeks, I have just found out that my own email notes
to myself have been spammed out and as an example, as I wrote this on
Dec 25, 2007 since June 16th, my 'spammed out' box has
47,941 unread messages, my deleted box has 16645 I have actually looked
at and deleted and I have actually answered 1234 email questions for
clients and strangers without sending a bill. I have also put aside
847 messages that I am maybe going to try and answer because they look
interesting. -e bankruptcy expert US Canada Canadian American
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Calls welcomed from 10 AM to 9 PM 7 days a week Vancouver (LA) time - (please do not fax or phone outside of those hours as this is a home office) expert US Canada Canadian American Mexican Income Tax service help.
$1,700 would be for two people with income from two countries
Catch - up returns for the US where we use the Canadian return as a guide for seven years at a time will be from $150 to $600.00 per year depending upon numbers of bank accounts, RRSP's, existence of rental houses, self employment, etc. Note that these returns tend to be informational rather than taxable. In fact, if there are children involved, we usually get refunds of $1,000 per child per year for 3 years. We have done several catch-ups where the client has received as much as $6,000 back for an $1,800 bill and one recently with 6 children is resulting in over $12,000 refund.
David Ingram expert income tax service and immigration help and preparation of US Canada Mexico non-resident and cross border returns with rental dividend wages self-employed and royalty foreign tax credits family estate trust trusts income tax convention treaty advice on bankruptcy
It is very unlikely that blind or unexpected email to me will be answered. I receive anywhere from 100 to 700 unsolicited emails a day and usually answer anywhere from 2 to 20 if they are not from existing clients. Existing clients are advised to put their 'name and PAYING CUSTOMER' in the subject line and get answered first. I also refuse to be a slave to email and do not look at it every day and have never ever looked at it when I am out of town. e bankruptcy expert US Canada Canadian American Mexican Income Tax service and help
Therefore, if an email is not answered in 24 to
48 hours, it is likely lost in space.
You can try and resend it but if important AND YOU TRULY WANT OR NEED
AN ANSWER from 'me', you will have to phone to make an appointment.
Gillian Bryan generally accepts appointment requests for me between
10:30 AM and 4:00 PM Monday to Friday VANCOUVER (Seattle, Portland, Los
Angeles) time at (604) 980-0321. david ingram expert
US Canada Canadian American Mexican Income Tax service and help.
david ingram's US / Canada Services
US / Canada / Mexico tax, Immigration and working Visa Specialists
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My Home office is at:
david ingram's US / Canada Services
US / Canada / Mexico tax, Immigration and working Visa Specialists
US / Canada Real Estate Specialists
My Home office is at:
4466 Prospect Road
North Vancouver, BC, CANADA, V7N 3L7
Cell (604) 657-8451 -
(604) 980-0321 Fax (604) 980-0325
North Vancouver, BC, CANADA, V7N 3L7
Cell (604) 657-8451 -
(604) 980-0321 Fax (604) 980-0325
Calls welcomed from 10 AM to 9 PM 7 days a week Vancouver (LA) time - (please do not fax or phone outside of those hours as this is a home office) expert US Canada Canadian American Mexican Income Tax service help.
Disclaimer:
This question has been answered without detailed information or
consultation and is to be regarded only as general comment. Nothing
in this message is or should be construed as advice in any particular
circumstances. No contract exists between the reader and the author and
any and all non-contractual duties are expressly denied. All readers
should obtain formal advice from a competent and
appropriately qualified legal practitioner or tax specialist for expert
help, assistance, preparation, or consultation in connection with
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David Ingram
gives expert income tax service & immigration help to non-resident
Americans & Canadians from New York to California to Mexico
family, estate, income trust trusts Cross border, dual citizen - out of
country investments are all handled with competence & authority.
Phone consultations
are $450 for 15 minutes to 50 minutes (professional hour). Please note
that GST is added if product remains in Canada or is to be returned to
Canada or a phone consultation is in Canada. ($472.50 with GST if in
Canada) expert US Canada Canadian American
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This is not intended to be definitive
but in general I am quoting $900 to $3,000 for a dual country tax
return.
$900 would be one T4 slip one W2 slip
one or two interest slips and you lived in one country only (but were
filing both countries) - no self employment or rentals or capital gains
- you did not move into or out of the country in this year.
$1,200 would be the same with one
rental
$1,300 would be the same with one
business no rental
$1,300 would be the minimum with a
move in or out of the country. These are complicated because of the
back and forth foreign tax credits. - The IRS says a foreign tax credit
takes 1 hour and 53 minutes.
$1,600 would be the minimum with a
rental or two in the country you do not live in or a rental and a
business and foreign tax credits no move in or out
$1,700 would be for two people with income from two countries
$3,000 would be all of the above and
you moved in and out of the country.
This is just a guideline for US /
Canadian returns
We will still prepare Canadian only
(lives in Canada, no US connection period) with two or three slips and
no capital gains, etc. for $200.00 up.
With a Rental for $400, two or three
rentals for $550 to $700 (i.e. $150 per rental) First year Rental -
plus $250.
A Business for $400 - Rental and
business likely $550 to $700
And an American only (lives in the US
with no Canadian income or filing period) with about the same things in
the same range with a little bit more if there is a state return.
Moving in or out of the country or
part year earnings in the US will ALWAYS be $900 and up.
TDF 90-22.1 forms are $50 for the
first and $25.00 each after that when part of a tax return.
8891 forms are generally $50.00 to
$100.00 each.
18 RRSPs would be $900.00 - (maybe
amalgamate a couple)
Capital gains *sales) are likely
$50.00 for the first and $20.00 each after that.
Catch - up returns for the US where we use the Canadian return as a guide for seven years at a time will be from $150 to $600.00 per year depending upon numbers of bank accounts, RRSP's, existence of rental houses, self employment, etc. Note that these returns tend to be informational rather than taxable. In fact, if there are children involved, we usually get refunds of $1,000 per child per year for 3 years. We have done several catch-ups where the client has received as much as $6,000 back for an $1,800 bill and one recently with 6 children is resulting in over $12,000 refund.
This is a
guideline not etched in stone. If you do
your own TDF-90 forms, it is to your advantage. However, if we put them
in the first year, the computer carries them forward beautifully.
This from "ask an income trusts tax service and
immigration expert" from www.centa.com or www.jurock.com or www.featureweb.com. David Ingram deals on a daily basis with expatriate tax
returns with multi jurisdictional cross and trans border expatriate
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